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Stay and feral cats are more than just a neighborhood nuisance.
They are a welfare concern for any animal-lover, a menace to any conservationist, and a potential threat to your pet cat.
In this conversation with cat-advocate Bryan Kortis from Neighbourhood Cats, we discuss:
Discovering the feral cat problem: how Bryan found a colony of 30 feral cats living in an empty lot in Manhattan and discovered how effective trap-neuter-return (TNR) programs can be.
The difference between feral and stray cats.
The conflict between cats and wildlife, and how a shared-goal approach is most impactful.
Different strategies for controlling stray and feral cat colonies.
Getting started with trapping feral cats.
How to support trapping efforts in your community.
With the right knowledge and support, anyone can make a positive impact in their community by helping to reduce the number of cats living on the streets.
I just always point out that if if removing the cats from the environment and killing them had been a viable solution, we wouldn’t be doing the work we’re doing today.
We wouldn’t be faced with a huge cat overpopulation problem.
Success of desexing and caring for feral cats
Dr. Alex asks how Bryan got into this line of work, given his background as an attorney, and Bryan explains that he has always had a fondness for cats. He stumbled into this work after discovering a group of kittens in an empty lot, which led him to research and discover that there were many feral cats living in the area that needed to be spayed and neutered. He and his neighbors worked to catch, fix, and care for the cats, finding homes for some of the kittens and reducing the population of cats overall.
Trying to find a solution for feral cats
Bryan explains that shelters were overwhelmed with feral cats and did not have the resources to care for them, so he and his neighbors decided to take matters into their own hands.
They successfully reduced the population of feral cats in their area and continued to work on other colonies throughout the city.
Eventually, Bryan began working with larger organizations like the ASPCA and Humane Society to teach others how to care for feral cats and reduce their populations in a humane way.
Difference between feral and stray cats
Dr. Alex asks Bryan to explain the difference between stray and feral cats, and Kortis notes that the term "feral" can have different meanings in different locations.
He explains that feral cats are cats that are not socialized to humans and live in colonies, while stray cats are cats that are lost or abandoned but may still be socialized to humans.
Bryan emphasizes the importance of spaying and neutering feral cats to control their population and reduce the number of homeless cats on the streets.
Overall, the first part of the conversation highlights the importance of caring for stray and feral cats and reducing their populations in a humane way.
Bryan’s work shows that with dedication and hard work, it is possible to make a real difference in the lives of these animals and in the communities where they live.
Balancing cat welfare and wildlife conservation
In the middle section of the interview, Dr. Alex and Bryan Kortis discuss the conflict between the animal welfare and conservation communities when it comes to the impact of cats on wildlife.
Bryan, who represents the animal welfare community, explains that while there is a real issue with cats killing native birds in areas like New Zealand and Hawaii, the solution should not be to eliminate all cats from the environment.
Instead, he suggests focusing on reducing the number of unowned and free-roaming cats through desexing programs.
Conflict between conservation and animal welfare communities
Bryan acknowledges that there is a values gap between the two communities, with animal welfare advocates focused on the value of the individual animal and conservationists looking at the survival of the species as a whole.
However, he believes that bridging this gap is possible by looking at specific situations and finding solutions that work for both groups.
Shared goal of reducing the number of cats
Bryan provides examples of successful solutions, such as creating cat-free zones in critical habitat areas or sterilizing cats in large public spaces where it is not feasible to remove them all.
He stresses the importance of finding a common goal of reducing the number of cats in the environment, rather than framing the issue as cats versus wildlife.
Unique solutions for specific situations
Overall, Bryan emphasizes the need for collaboration between the animal welfare and conservation communities in order to address the issue of cat predation on wildlife.
By working together to find practical solutions, both groups can achieve their respective goals while also promoting the welfare of cats and the protection of threatened and endangered species.
Getting started with trapping feral cats
In the final part of the interview, Dr. Alex asks Bryan Kortis, the National Programs Director at Neighborhood Cats, for advice on how to trap feral cats.
Bryan explains that his organization offers online educational training sessions on how to trap cats and certify individuals. The training covers the basics of how to trap cats, including establishing a feeding pattern and having the right equipment.
Bryan emphasizes the importance of working with a veterinarian who can provide educational materials on how to handle cats properly.
resources and support for trapping efforts
Bryan also suggests reaching out to local cat rescue organizations and animal welfare foundations for funding and support.
He explains that trapping is not for everyone, but individuals can support those who are doing the work by lending space to keep trapped cats and donating funds or equipment.
Bryan also recommends calling local council officials and requesting a publicly-funded desexing program for cats.
Safely and humanely trapping and caring for feral cats
Dr. Alex highlights the importance of providing the best for these animals as animal lovers. He acknowledges the challenges of trapping feral cats and recalls some of his own experiences dealing with stray and feral cats. Dr. Alex appreciates the work that Neighborhood Cats is doing and encourages listeners to visit their website to learn more.
Making a positive impact in your community by reducing the number of cats living on the streets
Bryan concludes the interview by recommending his organization's TNR Handbook, which is available on their website. The handbook provides detailed information on the hands-on work of trap-neuter-return and serves as a comprehensive guide for those interested in the process.
Overall, the interview provides valuable information and resources for those interested in trapping and neutering feral cats to reduce their populations and improve their welfare.
Full Transcript →
The following is an AI generated transcription of the above conversation:
Dr. Alex: Brian, welcome along to the show. It's really great to be talking to you today.
Bryan Kortis: Well, thank you, Alex. I'm happy to be here and appreciate the opportunity.
Dr. Alex: So, Brian, I'm really interested in how you got into the the world of stray and feral cats because it's not an obvious avenue with your early life as an attorney. Have you always been a cat person? You know what brought you into this field?
Bryan Kortis: Well, I've always had an affinity for cats. I always had pet cats when I was growing up and my own as an adult. But I really didn't have that much to do with free roaming cats until I was I was in my neighborhood. Walking by an empty lot one day and I came upon several kittens that were just running around in the grass. And, you know, it felt like I needed to to respond to that in some way. And my first thought was I would catch the kittens and give them to my rescuer friends and that would take care of it. Unfortunately, it turned out as I researched that that location, there were 30 cats that were living in the inner courtyard. So I was living on the Upper West Side of Manhattan at the time. So maybe not a place you would expect to see a lot of feral cats running around, but there were 30 of them. None of them were spayed or neutered or desexed, and it was just a situation that was out of control. I did. I did what I like to say any good citizen would do, which was I tried to find somebody else to take care of the problem for me. But there was no there were no services available. This situation I came upon was repeated literally thousands of times throughout New York City.
Bryan Kortis: The shelters were overwhelmed. They didn't want feral cats. They didn't have services for veterinary treatment for them. So I was I was advised, why don't you why don't you try to desex them and then take care of them where they are? And that seemed like a kind of an odd notion to me at the time. But I tried to rescue and place a couple of them. And then one poor foster girl. She she college girl. She the cat destroyed her brand new cat's couch. And then by peeing all over it, and then we had to take her stove apart, too, because the cat was hiding behind it. And it became apparent these were not particularly adoptable animals. So we went ahead, myself and a couple of neighbors, and we got them fixed, put them back, took care of them, found homes for the easily socialized kittens, and it turned out to be a very successful project. Population went from 30 to about 12 with the adoptions. The nuisance behavior that people were complaining about went away. And it was so successful that the next block over wanted us to do the same project because they had a colony of feral cats in their alleyways. So we did that and then we worked in the park in that that part of Manhattan.
Bryan Kortis: And then we ended up working throughout the neighborhood over the next couple of years just as volunteers. By the time we got to animal control and started to seek some support for the work we were doing, they looked at their data and they saw that the number of cats coming in from the zip codes where we the postal codes where we had been working was down over 70% compared to a slight rise in the rest of the city. So that got their attention. And then we started working with larger national organizations like the ASPCA and the Humane Society of the United States and teaching people how to do this work and how to do it safely. And it just kept growing. Um, as you know, and it continues to this day know, we do some projects overseas where we're consulting on a research project in Australia right now. So it really was something that was very organic, how I started and what it what I think happened was that this was a real problem in search of a solution. And de-sexing the cats and maintaining them where they were was a solution that that really took hold in the States. And so that turned into a charity. And here I am today still doing this work 20 years later.
Dr. Alex: That's wonderful. That little piece of serendipity that that first find and it's, you know, guess maybe in search of the right solution and the search of the right person to implement that solution as well, because that's no. No mean feat. Guess, you know, hearing that it's very similar to one of my first cats, a little ginger kits. And my wife went for a run down the the local river path and these yeah, ginger kittens came crawling out and had obviously been dumped in the box. But that and they were all, you know, very tame and very reasonable. But there is that difference guess between what we would call a stray cat and a feral cat. Yeah. Would you like to kind of explain that in a little bit more detail?
Bryan Kortis: Yeah, absolutely. So I think the the term feral has different meanings at different locations. So I know, I don't know in New Zealand, but I know in Australia a feral cat is a cat that is living completely sustaining itself without any human support. So there's no human based food source there are basically living off of predation, whereas a stray cat would be a cat that does have a human based food source, you know, either eating out of the dumpster or somebody comes by and feeds them every day. In in the states, in the United States, the meanings are slightly different. We refer to feral more as a behavioral term. So a feral cat is a cat that's not socialized, that you can't pick them up, you can't pet them. They might not even let you come near them so that they become unadoptable for behavior reasons. Whereas a stray cat is a cat that used to be in a home and now has found itself either lost or abandoned and living on the street. Sure. Sure. So that that would be the the main difference. And obviously with feral cats, since they're not they can't be rehomed. You know, we're they need a solution. And traditionally the solution for decades before the work we we started doing was to euthanize them. And that that was the dominant approach for at least 30 or 40 years prior to maybe maybe it's really take, you know, the sterilization of cats as a form of population control has really taken hold in the last ten years in this country. And I just I just always point out that if if removing the cats from the environment and killing them had been a viable solution, we wouldn't be doing the work we're doing today. We wouldn't be faced with a huge cat overpopulation problem and we can get it to, if you'd like, You know, the reasons why one works and potentially another doesn't.
Dr. Alex: Mean my understanding of that or my thoughts are that you're you're creating this void. And so you're just going to have more cats move into that area. And it's a self-perpetuating cycle. Whereas if you've got a desexed population, they kind of maintain a stable population that isn't growing exponentially. Is that kind of accurate?
Bryan Kortis: Yes, that's that's one of the primary reasons why removing cats from an environment doesn't work because they're there for a reason. You know, they wouldn't be there if there wasn't sufficient resources, food and shelter to support their their existence, just like you wouldn't have any form of animal living in an environment. And if that environment couldn't support them. So if you just take the animal out of the environment, there's all these unused resources that are just waiting for another cat to come along and start to repopulate that area. So that's that's one of the major dynamics behind it. But another one. Is that with cats, unlike wildlife. There's a there's usually a very strong human element involved and there's a bond that's involved. And our experience is that the people who take care of the cats on a daily basis are just as bonded to them as anyone would be to their traditional pet cat. They they have names for them. They bring them toys. They they're out there taking care of them, whatever the weather is. There's a very powerful bond. And if you try to implement a management approach that doesn't align with what the people who care for the cats want, you're just going to get met with a wall of resistance.
Bryan Kortis: And so to to desex a colony of cats successfully to trap them. You have to know when how many are there? Where do they eat? When do they eat? You need to be able to withhold food at a certain time so that they're hungry. None of this will happen without the cooperation of the people who are caring for them. So if you announce like, well, we're going to come and help you by trapping all your cats and then killing them, that that's not going to elicit a cooperative response. On the other hand, if you come in and you say, you know, we'll remove cats, but only with your consent if we think they're adoptable, otherwise we will return them and you won't be dealing with kittens every every six months. That usually does elicit a cooperative response. So between the vacuum effect and the need to work with caretakers, the desexing is a more successful strategy in our experience. Yeah.
Dr. Alex: I was wondering if you found that the once they've been desexed and then released back into their environment, that they are healthier because I'm thinking of the drive to fight and mate and all that kind of thing is and the diseases that are associated with that. Do you find that in your colonies that are full now of desexed cats, that they're actually healthier individuals as well?
Bryan Kortis: Yes. Yes, absolutely. I mean, first with the with the female cats, as you would know better than I, you know, once once they're desexed, they're not subject nearly as much to mammary tumors, for example, or pyometra, which would be an infected uterus. So for the female cats that that risk goes away for the male cats. It's a lot about not fighting. And so they're not getting these these deep wounds. And there are certain diseases that are passed like feline immunodeficiency virus is mostly passed by male cats fighting and deep bite wounds. They pass the virus in that way. You also obviously have you know, far fewer or no kittens, and they're the ones with the highest mortality rates. So you do end up with a much healthier cat population.
Dr. Alex: Yeah. And I think that does have then a knock on effect to the pet cats as well. I mean, maybe in the States where, as I understand it, there's a lot more indoor cats. But you know, here a lot of the trouble that our cats get into are because of because of fights and the diseases that get spread and meeting with the feral cats and the wild cats and also just stresses to things like urinary tract disease and our pet cats, which can be caused by the stress of a new cat coming into their territory. So all of those kinds of things are going to have a knock on effect for the wider pet owned cat population as well.
Bryan Kortis: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And something we often observe behaviorally is that once the cats are desexed, they a lot of them kind of mellow out and they start to become more, you know, within a year or so, they become more social and there becomes more of a possibility of placing them in a traditional home, you know, if that's a desired outcome.
Dr. Alex: Yeah, that's wonderful. I'm thinking of that human animal bond. And actually one of the previous podcasts have spoken. We've spoken at length at that, which was fantastic to hear. But there's also this bond with the wildlife in an area. So, you know, nature enthusiasts, it's a big issue here where I am in New Zealand, but the native birds and the impact of cats going outdoors, killing the native birds, you haven't grown up and evolved with the risk of predation. Is that conflict a real conflict? What's the size of that conflict and is that a real concern and something that this also addresses? That's a big question. I know.
Bryan Kortis: Oh, yeah. No, I mean, the the the wildlife issue is a big one. You know that I'm located right now in Hawaii, which. You know, similar to New Zealand is is home to a lot of rare and and threatened endangered species and a lot of lot of them are birds and there is the potential for cat predation. So it's a it's a heightened issue here. And a lot of the states, the cats are located in more urban centers or suburban. And it becomes an issue when when the cats are in critical habitat for for threatened species. My understanding is in New Zealand the species are much more widespread, the ones that are critical. So there's more potential on a nationwide level for kind of cat wildlife conflict. And I think what's what's unfortunate is that the relationship between the conservation community and the animal welfare community that that I represent, it's it's been framed as a conflict, as a cats versus wildlife cats versus birds. And there's a lot of focus on all the real or imagined, some of both of the ills that that cats, especially feral cats, bring when it comes to to native wildlife. And as a result, there's. There's this conclusion that the cats need to be eliminated from the from the environment, that they shouldn't be there and. The problem with that. So I I'm not a scientist and I don't I try to get into like, do the cats, you know, spread toxoplasmosis to the monk seals in Hawaii, for example, which they've been accused of.
Bryan Kortis: Or, you know, I'm not going to debate the value of an endangered bird versus a cat. You know, I think that's that's a value choice. So my focus is on. The those of us in the animal welfare community, we want fewer cats that are unowned and free roaming and not desexed as a welfare issue or the betterment of of the animals as well as our communities. The conservationists don't want the cats around to protect wildlife. In the end, we have the same goal, right? We're trying to have fewer cats. When I first got involved, I didn't think it was a good thing for 30 cats to be living and reproducing in a courtyard. So I took steps to address that. And if we focus on how do we get to that common goal, how do we accomplish fewer cats? That to me is a much more productive discussion than saying, you know, cats shouldn't be there. So that that doesn't that's just a statement of a problem. It's not a solution. So when I've worked with conservationists who who are able to bridge the values gap because there is a gap. So animal welfare people tend to focus on the value of the individual animal and the life that is represented there.
Bryan Kortis: Conservationists tend to look at the group of animals and not so much concern about any individual, but it's the survival of the species that is the value. So that can bring you into conflict, right? If you have an individual whose life you value and it's potentially harming the existence of the group. But if you can bridge that gap and start to look at specific situations. So for an example, I was involved in a situation where there was a group of feral cats living in the middle of a bird sanctuary in in a lot of these birds were were on the critical list. So not a good thing, right? The solution when looking at that situation was the community was a peninsula and the bird sanctuary was at the lower part of it. So the solution ended up being to put a line in the peninsula and everything south of that line was a cat free zone. So if a cat stepped into that zone, they were trapped and they were moved out of it and they were relocated north of that zone. And if they were repeat clients, they would be relocated off of the peninsula. So we ended up with no cats getting killed and the bird sanctuary not having that threat. Every situation is going to have a different set of circumstances and a different solution. And sometimes the solution is going to be to sterilize the cats, even though there's critical species nearby.
Bryan Kortis: Because. It's impractical to remove them all. So if we're talking about like a large public open space, I'm thinking of a park in San near San Francisco where there was a trail along the water along the bay, and hundreds, if not thousands of people used it on a daily basis. So there was constant abandonment of of new cats. And there was also a critical, critically endangered ground nesting bird. But to have swooped in and try to remove a couple of hundred cats and then change the environment so that no more could be abandoned there and thrive there. Was really kind of not a possible not a feasible solution. So what was done was the cats were desexed, the adoptable ones were removed, Their feeding was situated as far from the nesting areas as possible. And over the next several years, the cat population significantly declined and the bird population rebounded. So there's no one size fits all. And we need to, as we need to get past this, this black or white thing like that. There should be no cats at all. Right. That's very black or white or cat should be allowed absolutely everywhere without any limitation that's black or white. And the solutions lie in the gray area. And getting past the rhetoric and getting past the vilification of the different animals.
Dr. Alex: Yeah, love that. And yeah, that those different nuances are so yeah, so important and the different working with all the different stakeholders as well. Because yeah, the moment you alienate one group, you end up in a shouting match and you never really get anywhere. So I think that's the case with a lot of, a lot of life is trying to find this this common ground. And I guess the history of, you know, the historic capture and euthanasia killing of the cat population, failing to control that situation shows that that's really something that is incredibly difficult because cats, they they breed incredibly well. Say, if there's one thing cats do well, it's to have kittens. And there's always going to be pet parents who don't get their cat desexed. So no matter how well you control that population, that's it's just not not viable. Are there other ways that kind of are maybe local lawmakers, town officials and things can implement changes and changes in public policy that will make this all of this decision making and implementation easier?
Bryan Kortis: Yeah, I think the number one thing that public officials can do is to provide resources for desexing. You know, I know in Australia one of the key barriers to people getting the cats to sex that they don't necessarily own but are feeding on a daily basis and and really have a lot of characteristics of a pet is the affordability of getting them desexed and in the research project. That we're working with with the Australia Pet Welfare Foundation in Queensland. They're providing significant subsidies to either make the desexing free or very low cost. And that has really resonated. And again, it's it's identifying the obstacles. It's number one. It's. To to accept that, to have programs to desex the cats to make that possible, you have to first get past that notion of like, well, they shouldn't be there, right? Because that just ends up being a bottleneck that that nothing gets through that. So while they shouldn't be there, they are and they're reproducing rapidly. So once you get through that and then you realize like, hey. You know, it's like when I first did the sterilization of the cats in my very first colony, I didn't necessarily think this was such a great idea. I mean, it was the Upper West Side of Manhattan. There's a lot of traffic. I was still of the notion that all the cats should be in homes. I was skeptical. Yeah, but it was better than doing nothing. And it turned out and it's not always going to be a great success, but it turned out to be quite successful. So if you accept that desexing is a viable strategy, then you need to identify the reasons why people are not doing it.
Bryan Kortis: Is it because if they bring in a cat they don't own and they say they're going to, that they're feeding them, that they're subject to some type of criminal penalty? Is it the cost? Is it the lack of knowledge of how to handle these cats in a veterinary setting? Because especially the feral ones, there's some without basic knowledge. It's very challenging. You know, when we first started bringing trapped cats to veterinarians and they didn't know anything about feral cats, we had a lot of cats that ended up in the ceilings of veterinary offices because they would try to transfer them into cages and they would escape. So we've developed techniques where they never leave the trap. Unless they're sedated. So there are basic ways. But you have you have to teach people that. So, you know, finding the barriers, why aren't people getting the sex now and then as public policy overcoming those barriers is is going to make a huge a huge difference. And also removing the the the kind of negative image of the stigma that often comes from, you know, authorities when they're not really understanding the advantages of desexing. So people who are feeding the cats are can be villainized. And that all discourages people from coming forward and having them do the right thing. Sure. So, sure, you know, we call it you know, we tell people we want you to be a feeder, but we don't want you to be a breeder. Right. So but if you try to shut down the feeding and you drive them underground, they're never going to work with you.
Dr. Alex: Yeah, I think it's recognizing where those people are coming from because guess in society, there's the stigmatization of the crazy cat lady or, you know, the person who who goes out and, you know, has got the neighborhood of cats and they're not maybe respected and they're thought to be a little bit crazy. But, you know, that often couldn't be further from the case. They're they're very caring individuals who are really wanting the best for these animals and thinking of them as individuals, like you say, rather than as a population group where the individual the individual doesn't matter.
Bryan Kortis: And it's a stereotype. Yeah. And it's not an accurate one because in my experience, I mean, I've worked with every walk of life. I've worked with public officials, with doctors, with every type of professional, with building managers, you name it. There are people in whatever walk of life who have a relationship to outdoor cats. Now, now there are, you know, the old ladies who with their shopping carts who go around and feed a lot of them and God bless them. But to characterize the universe of people who are bonded and care about these cats to one stereotype is is just creating your own obstacle because you're not going to you're not going to reach people in a way that's effective if the goal is population control.
Dr. Alex: Yeah. So for people for those people that kind of recognize maybe that there's this situation going on in their neighborhood and they are inspired to take action, how do how can we go about starting to to trap these cats? Because they can be, you know, our feral cats, our wild cats can be pretty wily. They're not stupid. And catching them isn't always as straightforward as you might think.
Bryan Kortis: No. And and one of the silver linings that came out of the pandemic for us at Neighborhood Cats, the organization that that I work with is we had to bring all of our educational trainings online. So that turned out to be a great thing because now our trainings are available on an international basis, and once a month we partner with an organization called the Community Cats Podcast and we offer a 2.5 hour training session. If people can't attend it live, they can. Then they have like ten days a week to ten days to watch the recording, and that's a certification. So you can show that you've been trained. And we go over the basics of how to trap cats from verse, for example. A lot of people don't know you have to establish a feeding pattern. You don't just show up with a bunch of traps and spread them around the neighborhood. You train the cats to be at a certain place at a certain time. You need to have the right equipment. You need those basic handling techniques for using the trap as a cage so that they don't have to be transferred.
Bryan Kortis: So we go through all of that. If anybody is interested, they can go to neighborhood cats.org and on the home page you'll see a schedule of upcoming workshops. Or you can go to community Cats Podcast.com and they have a list of the workshops that they host for us. So that would be a great first step is to get that training and get that certification and then you're off and running. Then it's a matter of getting having the right equipment and then working with a veterinarian who will. If you go to neighborhood cats.org. Again, we have materials for veterinarians on how to handle cats. You can always write to us. You can always email me you know info at neighborhood cats.org and we'll be happy to send educational materials in Australia. If you contact the Australia Pet Welfare Foundation. They develop pages of protocols on how to do this work properly. So the information is out there. The good news is it's not rocket science. You know, a couple of hours of training and you can do this safely.
Dr. Alex: Yeah. And then it's a bit of intentionality and a little bit of, you know, hard work to follow through with that. But it's something that absolutely can be done. And I guess reaching out to other organizations because there may be funding available, too. I mean, I'm just thinking locally, we've got, you know, 2 or 3 different cat, you know, cat rescue organizations. We've got the SPCA, there's the RSPCA back in the UK. There's all of these organizations where some funding may be available and also the your local veterinarian, they may have a, you know, a discount or a scheme or know of people who they work with as well to to make it more affordable, you know, for for these situations as well.
Bryan Kortis: Yeah. And, you know, trapping is not for everybody, but you can support people who are who are doing this. So, for example, we recommend if you're dealing with a large number of cats that you give yourself a couple of days to trap them. Don't don't wait for the day before when it might rain or something like that. So you need a place to keep them. So if somebody will lend you their garage for a couple of days, that may be the difference between that project happening or not donating funds and as you say, reaching out to the you know, reach out to the SPCA of New Zealand or local CAT organizations, buy them some equipment. There's there's all sorts of ways to help calling up your your local council officials and saying, hey, we want a publicly funded desexing program for cats. That can be a big help. So there's a lot of ways to get involved.
Dr. Alex: That's wonderful. Brian. So this has been some fantastic information. I love this. I deal with quite a lot of, you know, stray and feral cats and yeah, I've learned how to handle them through the school of hard knocks And your talk of a few cats being on the ceiling. Yeah. You sometimes misjudge them and yeah, it can be a little bit exciting trying to get them back in their cage, thankfully. Yeah, that doesn't happen too regularly anymore. But yeah, wonderful. And you know, as as animal lovers, we should all want the best for for these animals. And this is one way that we can provide it. So neighborhood cats, though, all those resources that you've mentioned are pop them in the show notes. Is there any other social platforms or any other places that you'd like to send people who want to learn more about you and the work that your organization is doing? Brian.
Bryan Kortis: Well, neighborhood cats, dawg. That's definitely the best, the best place to go. We have a number of books that I authored that that are available on the site in the resources section about the hands on work. We have the Neighborhood Cats TNR Handbook, which is all about trapping and feeding and building shelters. And then for people who are more interested in the policy level, I authored a book called Community TNR Tactics and Tools, and that talks about kind of broad stroke programs and how to get the public involved and how to strategically use your resources and understanding that. Wherever you are in the world where there is a free roaming cat issue, there are probably more cats than you have resources for. So you have to go about it. If you're going to make progress, you need to do it in a in a strategic way. But if you do that, you know, you'll you'll have success. So if you go to neighborhood cats.org, you'll, you'll find all these resources. Also the Humane Society of the United States umaine pro.org. They have a lot of good good materials too about what we call community cats.
Dr. Alex: Fantastic. Well, Brian, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for sharing your expertise and thank you so much for the work that you do. It really is so very important. Bryan Kortis: Well, thank you so much, Dr. Alex. I appreciate the conversation and I think exciting times for New Zealand. And, you know, hopefully progress will be made.
Dr. Alex: Absolutely. Take care.
Bryan Kortis: Bye bye.
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